Read Judith Pond's full conversation with Tasnuva Hayden about crafting stories, loss, motherhood, and mid-life.
Find a copy of Judith's debut novel, the signs of no (University of Calgary Press, 2024) at your local bookstore or online at University of Calgary Press.
Please note, this interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Tasnuva Hayden: Hi Judith. It’s an honor to be able to interview you for filling Station Magazine. It was a pleasure to read your debut novel, the signs of no. Your writing is rich in detail and the conversational voice makes for an enjoyable read. Before we get deeper into discussions about your novel, I just want to take a moment to talk poetry. As stated in your biography, you are the author of four poetry collections. Can you tell us a little about your time as a poet and what ultimately inspired you to take on the challenge of writing your first novel?
Judith Pond: When I was a kid in rural Nova Scotia, there were no libraries around, but my mother somehow got hold of a very good book of poems and texts anthologized for children. This book contained everything from ‘children’s poems’ to limericks, to haiku, to some of the more elegant and eloquent verses of scripture in the Bible, and she read to me from the book on a fairly regular basis. I guess that would’ve been the start or basis of my writing poetry, though I didn’t actually try doing it until probably two or two and a half decades later, awash in the vicissitudes, of ‘life and love,’ I guess you could say.’ Around that time as well, I met a seasoned Canadian poet and novelist, who inspired me to take my early attempts at writing (I was trying short stories at that time) more seriously.
Tasnuva Hayden: As filling Station is known as “Canada’s experimental literary magazine”, would you consider your latest book to be experimental? If yes, can you elaborate on the elements that you believe makes it experimental?
Judith Pond: I didn’t set out to write an experimental novel, or a novel of any particular kind or genre, but I suppose that this book could be considered experimental in the sense that it contains quite a variety of stylistic ‘pivots,’ for want of a better word, from spontaneous poems of the main character’s, to quotations from works by Benjamin Britten (English composer), to ghost appearances and hallucinations, to Siri’s maddening instructions. It’s a busy book.
Tasnuva Hayden: According to the synopsis on the back of the book, the novel is presented a bit like a mystery/crime novel, however the vanishing of Rose’s daughter isn’t fully explained until the later sections in the book. What would you say the structure of your novel is trying to achieve? In what ways does genre play a factor in your novel? In what ways do you subvert genre?
Judith Pond: I guess this goes back to the question about ‘experimental novel’ a bit. I didn’t set out to write a book of any particular genre, and I didn’t particularly set out to achieve any particular structure, either. To be honest, my structure is ‘achieved,’ if that word applies to it, by groping along somewhat instinctually, in which activity I rely upon language more than on anything else—which goes back, again, to the question of ‘how did I become a poet’, in that my first commitment (apart from whatever story I want to tell) as it is in poetry, is to language. If I subvert genre at all, it is through the act of allowing words (as opposed to any notions of plot or structure or genre or subversion) to lead me in my day’s work of writing. To go back to the question, ‘what is the structure of your novel trying to achieve?,’ I like to quote Richard Ford (The Sportswriter, Independence Day, etc.) who once said in an interview, “I just want to pull a good heartstring.” I confess to flagrant old-fashionedness in that I’d rather pull a heart string than subvert anything.
Tasnuva Hayden: How do you think the side characters and the side plots drive the narrative of finding Rose’s missing daughter? What effects were you hoping to create with the multi POV structure throughout? Why did you ultimately choose an omniscient third person POV for this novel?
Judith Pond: Mostly in this novel, I wanted to explore the very human conundrum of the experience of a loss for which there is no socially organized or formalized memorial. All of us have these, whether or not we have them on a grand scale. Each of the supporting characters—and I think of them as a kind of ‘Greek’ chorus supporting the story of the main character, Rose—has experienced a child-related loss for which there has been no commemoration. Morrison is a womb twin survivor; Abbey, until later in the book, has missed out on having a child; Mab has lost a child via miscarriage; Iris the child has lost her original family unit, and Rose, of course, has lost her daughter to the daughter’s decision to leave home and not say where she’s gone. I like the omniscient third person POV for all the usual reasons, e.g. for the fact that allows more angles into the story and gives me as the teller more flexibility than if I were stuck in one person.
Tasnuva Hayden: Let’s talk dating and romance. Romance and relationships at mid-life aren’t often portrayed in the mainstream publishing landscape, so reading about Rose and Morrison’s relationship was quire refreshing, and likewise with Abbey and Parker. What were you hoping to portray or say about romance and relationships in mid-life? Do you think we need to see more of this representation both in books and movies?
Judith Pond: I certainly do think we need to see more representations of dating and romance in mid-life, and even later, in books and movies. We still get a pretty steady diet, for the most part (especially in movies and TV series) of young, hot, and L.A., which is: yawn, yawn, and yawn. What was I hoping to achieve? To tell a story, mostly. To show human beings trying to live. These human beings happened to be middle aged, except, of course, for maybe Abbey and Iris.
Tasnuva Hayden: There are lots of reference made to running and marathons in this book. Is this a personal interest of yours? What does the act of completing marathons invoke for you and what did you want the reader to take away from this reoccurring theme/symbol?
Judith Pond: True confessions, yes, I’ve done a lot of running, including a number of marathons and a couple ultras. Though I’m not sure I meant for the reader to take anything particular from the marathon/running theme, I do see long distance running as one metaphor, potentially, for the sometimes-pitiless endurance run of life itself. It’s also a form of meditation, in which unusual states of mind can occur, for example, Rose’s experience in her half marathon at the end of the book, Morrison’s state when he collapses on Nose Hill, and Abbey’s when she is trying to run before she realizes she is pregnant. I have sometimes found marathons comparable to indigenous vision quests, as one can be in a pretty ‘special’ state of mind by the time one reaches the finish line. And in this state of mind, sometimes, clarity about certain puzzles can occur, as well as release of some emotional baggage.
Tasnuva Hayden: As Bean’s character is primarily filtered through Rose’s perspective, we get painful insights into what it means to lose her. There is definitely a sense of guilt in Rose, that she’d failed her daughter somehow. It took a while to understand that Bean had actively chosen to leave Rose and that she wasn’t murdered or abducted, and that this was maybe more about Bean’s inner struggles, rather than Rose’s perceived failure as a parent. Why did you make the choice to shroud some of these details rather than reveal them earlier in the narrative? As the story isn’t set up as a crime novel, I would be interested to know why certain details were revealed later in the narrative.
Judith Pond: Good questions. I think I chose to shroud some of the details of Bean’s departure a bit because in a way, Bean herself is one of the ghosts/shrouds in the book. For me even as her inventor, she took most of the book to materialize and to define herself. I’ll admit that in my original writing of the novel, I never did intend to bring her back, and in some ways, I regret that I chose (thanks to urging from my editor, whose insights are always very worthy, so I trust her) to have her emerge at the end, though that second ending did allow me to explore some ideas that wouldn’t have been as possible otherwise.
Tasnuva Hayden: Imperfect characters—I love that Rose is mean! Please tell me more about your approach to crafting a character and your inspiration for Rose and Bean, in particular. Based on the acknowledgements in the book, I sense a parallel story here. That being said, please only share whatever you feel comfortable sharing.
Judith Pond: Ha ha, bad Rose. Which, of course, goes back to the human thing. Rose is very human (I hope), and she is middle aged, and that’s a time of life when a woman lets go of having to be ‘nice’ all the time. I hope she can be forgiven. I think, that for me, a character comes out of the puzzle I’m grappling with and out of the story itself. Characters for me usually start with the thought of real people I’ve known, and then gradually acquire more and more bits and pieces of a life independent of their origin. I love seeing that happen. And yes, there is a parallel story. I have a child (an adult now) who some years ago (ten or so years ago) chose to transition, and I admit that at the time this (I hardly even knew there was such a thing back then) hit me very hard. Psychologically as a mother, it was an enormous and bizarre—and uncommemorated—grief (they transitioned f to m) to ‘lose’ my daughter in this gradual fading (the ghost motif) or morphing from one state and into another, from opposite pronouns I had to learn, to surgery to stand by for. I didn’t do a good job at all, of embracing their decision, and we were in for some rough years, which I am glad to say, are much mitigated now, and that I’m a committed ally of trans people. The chimera of Bean was ‘born’ of this uncommemorated loss (of a daughter) in my life.
Tasnuva Hayden: What were some of your literary inspirations for this novel? If you were to compare the signs of no to other CanLit titles, which books or writers would you say are comparable?
Judith Pond: I don’t know if it shows a lot in this book, but my writing has been compared to that of Alice Munro, and she has definitely been an inspiration in my writing in general. Virginia Woolf, of course, also. I am indebted to Lisa Moore to some extent for inspiration, and my work has been compared with that of Miriam Toews.
Tasnuva Hayden: The novel is set locally, here in Alberta, and for us Calgarians, we’ll be able to recognize some of our favorite landmarks in your work. That being said, who are some of your local literary favorites? And do you have any book recommendations for us?
Judith Pond: I’m a great fan of Ali Bryan and Bradley Somer, as well as Paulo da Costa, all Calgary people, also Nancy Huston, Katherine Govier (Edmonton’s almost Calgary), Aritha van Herk, Deborah Willis, and Will Ferguson, to name a few. Books…Girlfriend on Mars (Willis), Coq (Bryan), Fables of Brunswick Avenue (Govier), No Fixed Address (van Herk).
Tasnuva Hayden: As a fellow writer, I am always interested in hearing about other people’s writing processes. Can you tell us about how you go about crafting a story? How is a novel born for you? What does the process look like from start to finish?
Judith Pond: I think a novel for me is born, just like a kid, out of pain, or perhaps out of a puzzle, which is also sometimes a pain. I write because something has really stumped me in my life, and because I want to dig into that thing from as many angles as possible. I don’t make up structures, apart from some sorting out along the way of problems I get myself into for letting language guide me. Language doesn’t get me into terrible trouble all the time, but sometimes I have to back up and start over. Then I write out what I think I want to achieve and where I hope to get to by the end, in terms of lessons learned. I guess from start to finish (I haven’t completed very many novels, at least not very many I’ve tried publishing), I have the puzzle I want to explore, and I write a draft. Then I ignore it for a while (two years for the one I’m doing now, partly because of another one that’s coming out next fall with Freehand Press), and then I try to rewrite it. But what I’ve learned is that, by and large, the ‘rewrite’ isn’t going to end up being the same book at all. The first draft is just a grab bag (a very important one) for the second draft. Depending on what my writers’ group (if I’m lucky enough to have one) makes of it, I may well do a third draft. It takes me forever.
Tasnuva Hayden: I’m also someone who loves to hear about writing routines. What does a typical day look like for you as a writer?
Judith Pond: My writing day is pretty much the same every day these days, as I’m no longer teaching. I set my alarm for five a.m., roll out at around 5:30, have my coffee, then go straight to the pool, where I swim for an hour and then do an aqua size class (I tore a hamstring really badly a few years back, so I’m not allowed to run anymore). After that I start writing at around ten, and I work until maybe noon and then read and have a rest if I’m lucky, then I’m back at it for a couple hours in the afternoon, usually. You would think that this would result in lots of pages per day, but I am a very slow perfectionist, and as mentioned above, it takes me forever. In the evening, I watch TV usually, on Netflix and other platforms. The carrot that gets me through the writing day is the promise of being able to sink into others’ stories in the evening. And that’s pretty much my day.
Tasnuva Hayden: Lastly, can you tell us about your current work-in-progress? What themes and elements are you excited about exploring in your next body of work?
Judith Pond: The book I’m working on now also features several characters (though some are ‘supporting’), and is an exploration of different kinds of love, with a sort of central question of: under what kinds of circumstances can a person be pushed into an extreme act on account of love. You ask what I’m excited about exploring in my next/current project, and that’s what it is. This idea of what can a person’s love drive them to do. So far, I plan to steal its title from a story by Chekov.
Judith Pond has published fiction and poetry in a wide variety of Canadian literary journals. She holds an M.A. in German Language and Literature from Queen’s University, Kingston, Ontario, and an MFA in Creative Writing from the University of British Columbia, Vancouver. Four collections of poetry have been published by Oberon Press of Ottawa. Her first novel, The Signs of No, was published by the University of Calgary Press 2024; a second novel, That's Where You Where You Were, Then, is slated for publication by Freehand Press, Calgary, in September of '25.
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